I am not a fan of this new law ONLY because I think it puts already over-burdened law enforcement agencies in between an unbearable rock and an even harder hard place. The most troubling provision is that private citizens can pursue LEGAL action against law enforcement if there is a presumption that the new law is not being enforced. So the average Joe cop will be sued by every legal aid attorney for racial profiling, as soon as he attempts to ask a legal resident to produce papers and enforce the law. At the same time, if the same officer is NOT asking suspected illegal aliens for papers, legal residents may initiate legal action against him for NOT enforcing State mandated law.
As for Arizona’s desire to ENFORCE legal immigration across its border – since the Federal government has failed to control the problem, what should states like Arizona, California, and Texas do? These states are disproportionally affected by immigration issues as compared to most others. They have a flood of illegal immigrants whose kids attend schools and whose families use emergency local medical services. Most of us do not have a problem with LEGAL IMMIGRATION. My general feeling is, get in line and wait your turn along with the hundreds of thousands of others that have waited years for a chance to legally enter the country. Again this has NOTHING to do with race for 99% of us. Even if blond haired and blue eyed Swedes were flowing into the country illegally, Arizona and most Americans would complain and demand action from its government.
The real irony over all of this is that within 25 miles of the Southern border currently, law enforcement has had the right FOR YEARS by law to stop anyone WITHOUT CAUSE to confirm legal residency. Even my daughter, with blond hair and a Cardinal red car that conceals nothing, has been stopped in Texas for an immigration check. She did not lay an egg, nor was she offended at all. She was simply surprised and cooperative as most legal residents will be. I find it unhelpful that ‘outsiders’ have called for a boycott of Arizona’s businesses and tourism. This is patently unfair to ALL of the people of Arizona and any sovereign state trying to deal with tough local realities especially when put to a vote of the people.
The solution to all of this is simple enough – ENFORCE current law at the Federal level and new reactionary laws like Arizona’s will prove unnecessary and redundant. Until then or when Purgatory gets a lot colder, if you are in Arizona illegally, you may want to consider an address change. Try the Golden State first and join San Francisco’s proposed boycott on Arizona business. I think the legal residents of Arizona will appreciate your help in plugging up the burden on their cops and resources. And best of all, your illegal presence and valuable contributions will surely help California’s booming economy avoid bankruptcy right? Now that’s what I call a Win-Win deal!
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THANK YOU! This is such an intelligently thought out blog!
ReplyDeleteI post this anonymously because none of the other options pertain to me. I live in Arizona, I was born in Germany to a US Military father and getting travel documents such as a passport is a little bit of a pain because I have to present 2 birth certificates but I do it because I respect the laws of this country as well as the laws of foreign countries. If I am to be a guest in their country then I expect to follow their laws, learn enough of their language to get around and show respect. Why is it so wrong for America to expect the same...what the heck is our military (clear back to the Revolution) fighting for?
Well done, nice to see someone that really understands what this Az. law is about.
ReplyDeleteThe government of the USA made the immigration law but are unwilling to uphold it.So really, what do they expect?
So your argument is that this has to do with STATE money and resources. I'm capitalizing the word state to mock you. I've looked over your entry and failed to see a comprehensive analysis of the costs of illegal immigration to the state. That's not surprising, it's obvious you're speaking without the benefit of any real knowledge.
ReplyDeleteWhat is even less surprising is that you have not considered the economic BENEFITS (again, mocking) of immigrants. It is politically inconvenient to talk about the economic benefits provided by immigration, much less to study them closely. The only recent attempt was by the Treasury of the State of Texas a few years ago that found that the state came out $16 billion ahead each year based on a thorough analysis of all the costs to the state and the economy, and all the benefits to the industries employing and providing goods and services to these same immigrants. You, like everyone else, assume negative effects.
Based on your inability to even conceive of this side of the issue, your claims to competence in a large variety of liberal arts, blah, blah, blah are better off disregarded.
Economic impact involves, follow me on this one, costs and benefits. It would benefit you to work on your cognitive processes.
Wow - an awful lot of mocking going on in that comment. Please remember that you are in a COURT - of public opinion that is.
ReplyDeleteAs for your concern for all the good that ILLEGAL immigrants do for the State of Arizona, I will refer your query to Arizona's department of corrections where 55% of all inmates are currently illegal - they may not agree?
More to your point however, I AGREE that MOST LEGAL immigrants are hard working, law abiding folks. However, ILLEGAL immigrants, by definition have BROKEN THE LAW, therefore they are acting illegally and are not WELCOME into the country under current immigration residency requirements. I know I am not too cognitive at times so consult your dictionary for the EXACT meaning of ILLEGAL. The point is if you want to live here, work here, raise your family here - get in line, get your residency and COME ON IN and help out. America will love to help you achieve your dreams and reap rewards. BUT if you think it is fair or 'your right' to jump in front of everyone else, EVEN IF YOU INTEND TO DO GOOD THINGS - then sadly you have missed the point of your first test as a welcomed resident. NO OTHER COUNTRY ALLOWS THIS behavior - so why is it so hard to understand that LEGAL, controlled immigration is good basic governmental policy?
If your point with the COURT (when people try to reinforce weak arguments with capital letters, it really is too easy to mock) of public opinion comment was that you think others here reading have thoughtlessly agreed with you, I would guess you are right. It's called groupthink, and it a thoroughly unimpressive argument.
ReplyDeleteAs to your main point, it seems to have switched from what it was in the blog entry, where in the first paragraph you claim your concern is with costs (writers often put their thesis statement in their first paragraph), to a new focus after it was brought to light how uninformed you actually are on the costs.
I made no query regarding the good immigrants do for the state, I made a statement of verifiable fact concerning economic impact in another state.
I will ask you though whether you think that in a state with such high degrees of racial profiling, what point you think you were making by saying 55% of inmates are illegal. Is that your attempt at calculating the costs of immigrants to the state? If so, maybe you could work a little harder at it, as it involves no cost figures for even the additional law enforcement it might take to police a state so concerned with race, and again, seems to miss the most basic of points: when you are looking at economic impact, your concerns are both costs, and, follow me here, it's apparently harder than I thought for some, benefits. Free to give the calculation another shot.
As to your other point, I will start by saying I agree with you on your lack of cognition once again. I will try to explain why your simple view of good basic governmental policy is so, well, simple:
Our government created policies wherein our highly subsidized agricultural industry flooded Latin America with products that decimated small agricultural communities. This, in turn, caused many people of working age who had lived for all their lives in agrarian communities with little to no other industries to migrate to the U.S. I have spent some time working for an immigration attorney, and this vaunted controlled immigration policy you speak of means that people would wait upwards of up to 20 or more years to try to enter a country legally to try to replace their vanished livelihoods.
You seem to be aware that reference materials exist; you appear to have been introduced to a dictionary at some point since you referred to one. Feel free to find reference materials on immigration policy, including the impacts of NAFTA on the whole of North America.
While you are at it, you might want to research how it is that your forefathers and my forefathers arrived in this country, and how they might have gone about obtaining their visas.
You seem to know quite a bit about the immigration policies of every other country, based on your last sentence. Feel free to share with me about the new zero immigration policies all European countries enacted since I last had a residence there.
I'll leave you with this: Thinking people are not 'aghast at the perceived insensitivities of Arizona'. No thinking person makes the case that complete uncontrolled immigration makes sense, nor are they surprised that people are worked up about immigrants. What is of concern to those who have thought this through with any depth, is that a state would have so stupid a response as to believe that racial profiling is an answer.
This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.
ReplyDelete** PLEASE NOTE THIS ORIGINALLY ANONYMOUS COMMENT HAS BEEN EDITED RATHER THAN DELETED. YOU ARE ALWAYS WELCOME TO EXPRESS YOURSELVES CIVILLY, HOWEVER PROFANITY IS NOT ALLOWED. **
ReplyDeleteOur founders must be revolting in their graves........ This crummy legislation is unconstitutional, it legalizes racial profiling, this is against the law and its a MAJOR SCALE LAW braking and depriving of citizens and government take over
W.C. Camp, you are kidding yourself if you believe "no law-abiding citizen" will be bothered by the AZ law. I've lived in the SW my entire life and it is a well-known fact that many law enforcement officers already profile Hispanic-appearing individuals for no reason other than to hassle them. Now those individuals are given free rein to up the level and number of unreasonable stops.
ReplyDeleteMay I remind you and your readers that many other ethnic groups have a tenancy to appear Hispanic, including Italians and some Middle Eastern nationals. Since they can't know who is a citizen without demanding papers (which many US citizens don't have and can't easily obtain-- including the Native American population) I foresee a big amount of "detention" purely on the basis of missing papers. I also predict that some Hispanics who have come legally into this country and become citizens will be picked up without papers and deported before relatives can save them. All of this to which I referring is gross injustice. And it will happen if this law is not declared unconstitutional. What the constitution provides is the safety of the citizens from such actions as this law will create, even encourage. In our fear of not enough, we are willing to gut this country of the very things that have, in the past made the country great. I'm sad for the potential victims and for those of us who have gotten so selfish we are willing to watch this travesty and not say a word. This is how the Germans felt as Hitler rose to power.
*tendency* rather than tenancy (para. 2)
ReplyDeleteFolks, if you will refer to the original thrust of my post, I AGREE - fair enforcement of this law is almost impossible, that is WHY I SAID I WAS NOT HAPPY WITH THE LEGISLATION AS WRITTEN.
ReplyDeleteThe fundamental difference is you are assuming 'law enforcement' generally is out to harrass people of color. I DISAGREE. Generally, law enforcement is just trying to enforce the law. Yes there are bully cops but they are far from the norm. Also from my experience in California as well as the Arizona and Texas border, MANY law enforcement personnel are IN FACT people of color themselves so they SHOULD BE more sensitive to this issue - not less?.
Where I run afoul of some of my readers, BUT NOT the majority of legal citizens, is that I DO SUPPORT states rights to deal with the problem. I WISH I did not have to, but it is clear that since Bush I, Clinton, Bush II, and now Obama - nobody at the Federal level is willing to enforce the CURRENT immigration law as written. This AZ law truly offers little new to law enforcement but I feel it unduly puts law enforcement at risk of lawsuits. All the politicians want is a Hispanic block votes so they are afraid to enforce the law. That's dumb! I would rather make the LEGAL immigration process a 6 month background check and processing instead of the 6 years now IF EVERYONE WOULD FOLLOW THE LAW AND GET IN LINE. We have laws here and Mexico has similar immigration laws. Why is it ok for Mexico to enforce their borders, but the U.S. should allow free access and residency to anyone, anytime?
Your humanitarian desires are noble - I completely understand your position. However without a coherent Federal policy, you are going to see MANY states add these type of laws to try and cut down on the cost exposure of illegals. Nobody questions that some LEGAL residents will be challenged unnecessarily (look at my daughter's example. However, in MOST cases, I think it will be a minor irritant and if it isn't the civil justice system exists with judges and juries to right wrongs.
Everybody needs to relax a little. This law will no doubt be challenged at the Federal level. My ultimate hope is that Arizona's efforts will ultimately SHOW the Feds, that they have no choice but to come up with a coherent immigration policy or face dozens of States implementing the same flawed laws. Make no mistake however, in the end, the idea is to KNOW who our residents are and what they are doing. So if people choose to live and work here illegally and have no intention to resolve their status - then they ARE BREAKING THE LAW & SHOULD BE JAILED AND/OR DEPORTED. It is the only fair way. W.C.C.
Good article W.C. If the Federal Government would do what it is supposed to do in securing our borders none of this would be necessary.
ReplyDeleteI wrote the first two comments pointing out how little you know about the issue and asking you whether you had any relevant knowledge about the related economic and immigration policy issues.
ReplyDeleteIt is very difficult to discuss something with someone who has so little understanding of the value of data and relevant information. You can't intelligently discuss any of the relevant issues concerning the economics of immigration but you will spout off about costs.
You know nothing about our immigration process or policies but you spout off about those and those of other nations, though you make it clear you know nothing about those either. You did, however, look up on the internet somewhere after I pointed out your ignorance, that it takes 6 years for the immigration process to work its magic. Only someone with a profound ignorance of the subject would believe that.
Now you are claiming that because you have been in states with minorities in their law enforcement agencies, it could not be possible that minorities would be harassed.
It seems like a lost cause, but I will refer you once again to a concept called 'data'. First, if it isn't too hard for you, try to find information on any law enforcement agencies that have tried to track racial profiling/discrimination/harassment. Try finding any relevant data where that kind of behavior was not present. Next, if it's not too much trouble, try finding out of that behavior magically disappears when minorities are a part of the law enforcement agencies.
You are claiming you 'completely understand' others' positions and how humanitarian they are. You are barely aware of your own position.
The only thing you understand that is remotely right is that federal policy needs to change. At the moment, there is little to no path to citizenship for most immigrants. Their contributions to our economy are tremendous, even after factoring in additional costs of them being here. And they are in a position where not only can they and are many consistently abused for their labor and their contributions to our state economies and tax coffers, they are also in an irreparable state where they can and often are harassed and discriminated against.
It isn't that surprising when considering that the majority of people in the U.S. get it wrong also, but you are an utter failure in understanding the issue. If you think that your young blond-haired daughter getting pulled over for some nonsense is the same as being on the receiving end of racial discrimination and harassment, you are either intentionally or unintentionally, a silly man.
(cont.)
I wrote the first two comments pointing out how little you know about the issue and asking you whether you had any relevant knowledge about the related economic and immigration policy issues.
ReplyDeleteIt is very difficult to discuss something with someone who has so little understanding of the value of data and relevant information. You can't intelligently discuss any of the relevant issues concerning the economics of immigration but you will spout off about costs.
You know nothing about our immigration process or policies but you spout off about those and those of other nations, though you make it clear you know nothing about those either. You did, however, look up on the internet somewhere after I pointed out your ignorance, that it takes 6 years for the immigration process to work its magic. Only someone with a profound ignorance of the subject would believe that.
Now you are claiming that because you have been in states with minorities in their law enforcement agencies, it could not be possible that minorities would be harassed.
It seems like a lost cause, but I will refer you once again to a concept called 'data'. First, if it isn't too hard for you, try to find information on any law enforcement agencies that have tried to track racial profiling/discrimination/harassment. Try finding any relevant data where that kind of behavior was not present. Next, if it's not too much trouble, try finding out of that behavior magically disappears when minorities are a part of the law enforcement agencies.
You are claiming you 'completely understand' others' positions and how humanitarian they are. You are barely aware of your own position.
The only thing you understand that is remotely right is that federal policy needs to change. At the moment, there is little to no path to citizenship for most immigrants. Their contributions to our economy are tremendous, even after factoring in additional costs of them being here. And they are in a position where not only can they and are many consistently abused for their labor and their contributions to our state economies and tax coffers, they are also in an irreparable state where they can and often are harassed and discriminated against.
It isn't that surprising when considering that the majority of people in the U.S. get it wrong also, but you are an utter failure in understanding the issue. If you think that your young blond-haired daughter getting pulled over for some nonsense is the same as being on the receiving end of racial discrimination and harassment, you are either intentionally or unintentionally, a silly man.
(cont.)
(cont.) I am a humanitarian, though. My good deed for the day will be this recommendation: For a good four or five years, close your mouth on this subject. Take all your truly childish assumptions and research them. Honestly and thoroughly, not superficially like what you now spout, but like a real renaissance man would. Study the history of immigration in the United States; recently how the Italians, the Poles, the Irish, the Chinese, etc. arrived and contributed to our great nation while being treated like inferior people by the stupid general citizenry until, given a little time, they all fit into their places as integral parts of who this nation is.
ReplyDeleteStudy the impact of NAFTA on small farmers in Mexico and how that affected immigration trends.
Study anything more credible than the nonsense you have read about what it takes for people to become U.S. citizens post 9/11.
Study the effects of the drive to identify foreigners in pre-World War II Germany and in so many other instances through to modern-day Russia.
I understand you and probably a majority of Americans are confident you understand the issue and are not racist. Your blond daughter once got pulled over so you must understand how it feels to be profiled, and you have heard about the costs of immigration so you are really only concerned about economics. Have you ever looked at an income statement and considered the section on costs the only relevant section? Nonsense. It is not politically convenient for us to discuss how much we benefit economically from immigration but the ignorant who don't want to feel bad about their dislike for the 'others' repeat their false knowledge about costs endlessly.
For the benefit of everyone you come in contact with, learn. Stop pretending to know things you do not and become genuinely knowledgeable. Or simply stay you, and revel in the comfort that there are many more like you.
To D. (for Dumbhead):
ReplyDeleteWhat a lot of verbiage the Tinhorn Self-Appointed Lawyer-in-his-own-Mind keeps using to just say "Let 'em break the law."
Then not really able to defend that indefensible anarchist premise no matter how insulting and snotty he gets, he resorts to long, tiresome diatribes attempting to impugn the character and education of anyone with whom he disagrees.
He thrills to his own foamy-mouthed blitherings as much as CAPITAL LETTERS make him queasy. So I'll use some more of them to end this argument:
The ONLY fact is that ILLEGAL "ANYBODIES" ARE BREAKING THE LAW. PERIOD.
But WHY BOTHER TO ANSWER AN IDEOLOGUE? They are like two-year olds who try to wear down reasonable grownups by their tantrums.
.
Children deal in absolutes. I get that you don't understand more thorough arguments, and lacking the ability to make an adult argument yourself, will resort to capital letters. Close your foamy little mouth and produce the legal documents that provided your grandparents with the right to arrive in the U.S.
ReplyDeleteYou have nothing to contribute to an adult discussion, sit in the corner with your crayons and work on your all caps.
D